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Original: 1/22/2006 3:00 PM
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Sunday, January 22, 2006

 
Currently Listening
The Fiction We Live
By From Autumn to Ashes
see related

Sorry about the delay, sometimes procrastination gets the better of me.  I don't think I'm totally done, but done enough.

Self

What is the "self"?  This is a question that I have posed not only here, but elsewhere as well.  I had learned from experience that just asking "what is the self" usually leads to confusion, so here I also allowed people to answer "what makes you you?"  It is interesting that everyone automatically assumes that these two questions are asking the same thing.  Equally interesting are the people that answer the first question with the second question (you are yourself).  Both of these questions are deceptively difficult for most anyone who is totally honest with themselves (not that if it isn't difficult you aren't being honest, but for most it is difficult).  Why is this difficult?  One reason may be that we live our lives with the feeling of separation from everybody and everything else, and we never question this separation.  But once we do, we find it hard to articulate, or possibly even know where we end and everything else begins.

Humans understand the universe by splitting it up into groups (eg stars, planets, animals, plants).  But we forget that our divisions are exactly that, our divisions.  Every time we create a group, we are creating a boundary that is splitting up the true whole into false wholes:  one group containing the subject of our grouping, one containing everything else.  But the Universe contains no such separations, but we forget this and we get lost in our own boundaries.
One place this is very obvious is with the self.  We split "self" into "ourself" and "yourself," but like all other boundaries, this is illusionary.  Without "yourself" there would be no "ourself."  As Chris pointed out when he answered my question, we define ourselves only in relation to others.  So the "self" dilema is the same as the subject-object relationship (or observer-observed relationship).  We consider "ourselves" as the observer and "yourself" as the observed.  But these cannot exist without the other:  no observer can exist without something to observe, and nothing is observed without an observer.  So "ourself" has no identity separated from "yourself."  So "self" contains both "ourself" and "yourself" which has obvious implications, not the least of which is that you and I are both part of the same "self."
To find what "self" is, we need at least a tentative definition to test.  I define "self" as that which has an identity unto itself, ie is not defined in relation to something else.  This seems simple enough, but it really isn't.  You may automatically think that "you" or "I" are self defining, but they are not, "you" does not exist without "I" and vice versa.  Not even "IS" is defined only by itself, it exists only in relation to "IS NOT."  So "self" has to be that which contains all as well as not-all.  In summation, "self" contains all duality.

Peace, scitso

 Posted 1/22/2006 3:00 PM - 17 Views - 30 eProps - 44 comments

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Holy crap he's alive and he updated!!!  What's going on?!?!  This is not the brother I knew.  Heh, j/k!

That post was...easy to understand, and at the same time not so much...heh...yea...

Loave ya

Posted 1/22/2006 7:32 PM by wolleyyellow - reply

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Aloha- it has been a long time. Ok, I am wondering why this is an important question to ask? Do you view it as a question that helps one better understand who they are? You have to forgive me, I am not incredibly intelligent so I must ask questions to better understand.

So, we do not define ourselves in relation to others but rather define ourselves by who or what we are? How are you proposing on a practical level for each individual to discover 'self'?

(Be kind: if these are dumb questions, be kind lol)

Posted 1/23/2006 7:32 AM by LadyElaineFairchild - reply

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"Aloha- it has been a long time. Ok, I am wondering why this is an important question to ask?"  You actually answered your own question: "I must ask questions to better understand."  That is the only reason I can think of we ever ask questions.  Why is it so important?  I personally think it is important to take nothing for granted, and "self" seemed like it may be the most fundamental.  And I do think it can help one understand who he/she is.

"So, we do not define ourselves in relation to others but rather define ourselves by who or what we are? How are you proposing on a practical level for each individual to discover 'self'?"

Honestly, I don't intend to try to tell people how to discover "self" for themselves.  "Self" means different things to different people.  Some view it as just his/her mind, some as mind and body.  As for discovering what "self" is, it is up to the individual.  And some people just don't care to define "self," which is up to them.

Was that kind enough for ya?

peace, scitso

Posted 1/23/2006 3:10 PM by scitsofreaky - reply

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Heh, well I guess that's a plus.  They really sucked...it was sad, and I don't even care about football.  This one just upset me.  Hahahaha, ok, I'm being dramatic, but that's what I do best right?

Loave ya!

Posted 1/23/2006 6:58 PM by wolleyyellow - reply

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I compleltly disagree. I am the most introspective person i know, and spend most of my time thinking about what, who and why I am. Obviously i have no, 'answers', but i do know that self is not merely in relation to others, because u still have a self without others. I have also come to realize that, my 'self', does not refer to one thing. It is not a, 'man made' grouping either. In each self there is, mind, body, and perhaps a soul. anyways, tis my opinion on the subject.

btw, i loved what u wrote about boundries, i agree almost compleltly, except that i don't beleive we have become, 'lost in our own boundries', i think we became 'found'. I broke many of these boundries and trust me, I am a hell of a lot more lost now than before.

Plz comment me back, I have been dying for an intelligent convo such as this, (lmao it says so in my description)...

Posted 1/25/2006 2:22 PM by pink234234234 - reply

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the self - 3 paragraphs to define something important. you cant help it can you? you know if i could see the lines of your face, i could speculate without even having to ask. but i could never accurately tell how old you are. do you have faith? omg it's so tough!
Posted 1/26/2006 4:35 PM by h7opolo - reply

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"the self - 3 paragraphs to define something important. you cant help it can you? you know if i could see the lines of your face, i could speculate without even having to ask. but i could never accurately tell how old you are. do you have faith? omg it's so tough!" Three paragraphs to give an incomplete but comprehensive enough idea of what I think.  I'm not all that good at writing out all of my thoughts, so there is much is is left out, and some things that I have, to some extent, touch on in other entries. Do I have faith?  Why do I need faith?   Peace, scitso
Posted 1/26/2006 10:44 PM by scitsofreaky - reply

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My name on ex-christian.net is............Freedy is tha name!

freedy1000

Posted 1/27/2006 1:25 PM by Ffreedy1000 - reply

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I dont think i meant wat u thought i did about the introspective comment lol. I just meant that I analyze my own thoughts a lot. Not trying to say I'm good at it or I know a lot..just that i do, in fact, 24/7, analyze exactly wat is going thru my mind and why. and i dont know a lot of ppl, and most of the ppl i kno are 16 lol so by, "the most introspective person i know", i wuznt implying that i am the most introspective person alive..in any way.

Anywayz...I've been thinking a lot about the self thing, {lol tis actually my msn name rite now, '' 'self' is an illusion. Only the deluded know who they are"}, and ur right, self would not exist without other. If i wuz the only thing that existed, i would not be "self", i would be "all". haha now that'z an interesting thought.

As for the boundries thing...I'm not sure that I have broken any boundries that exist for anyone else. But I am positive I have broken many that used to exist for myself. It does seem that they exist for many others though. Then again, I've never been able to have a very good conversation about it since, up till now, pretty much no one understandz wtf im saying. The boundries I broke were more than a map though. They were like a shielded version of reality. Where everything was simply accepted. Like my life was planned out almost. And everyone, including myself, knew exactly wat they were doing and why. Well it's hard to explain...but things like god existing weren't important. Weren't even relavant. Things like meaning. Then I started to question things, everything actually. At first I would just kind of drift off into thought, wondering what life meant, and what I should do with it. It was so dreamlike.  

But every once in a while it would become real. I would know for a second or two why everything can't come from nothing. I would almost know what it meant for nothing beyond space and time to exist.

It scared me when it got real like that. Sometime between now and then, (closer to now), it kinda switched. All the day to day tasks and social drama became the dreamlike part of my life, and all the questionz were the only thingz that were real.

But not being able to tell anyone this is starting to make me fall the other way. Because reality doesn't make sense unless more than one "self" can see it....

lol i reallie got carried away there didnt i? Well even if I didnt make any sense...comment me back. im sure ull tell me how naive i am to think i can see what i think i can see. maybe i am. But if uve any way of 'testing' if i reallie have broken any boundries...by all meanz, plz let me kno...

Posted 1/30/2006 4:35 PM by pink234234234 - reply

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Do I get a cookie for that answer?

Chris
Posted 1/31/2006 6:32 PM by heaven4allworeligion - reply

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Scitso - you said - In this case, you are wrong, homophobes are the ones trying to change the law to define marriage as only between a man and a woman.

If the law ALREADY STATES that a man can marry a man, and a woman a woman, then they would legally be able to marry, which THEY AREN'T, except in a couple states where the law WAS CHANGED.

Larry
Posted 2/1/2006 11:33 AM by LSP1 - reply

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Wow, that's really well thought out. I agree with you. I see two possible things that you might believe are independant -- either the universe, or God. I believe that God is the only self-defining "self", and the universe is part of that "self." The only question that that leaves is the existance of evil. Perhaps evil is the only other "self", as God's "self" doesn't include evil. Quite possibly, this is the only real "natural division" of anything -- good and evil.
Posted 2/1/2006 2:35 PM by Pyro589 - reply

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"Wow, that's really well thought out. I agree with you. I see two possible things that you might believe are independant -- either the universe, or God."

I don't see either as "independant" but interdependant, ie one cannot exist without the other.

"I believe that God is the only self-defining "self", and the universe is part of that 'self.'"

If God is separate from the universe, I don't see how God can be any more self-defining than anything else.  If God was the only thing that existed, then there would be no use or need of the idea of God.  What I mean by God is that which is self-defining, so I do agree that God is the only self-defining self.

 The only question that that leaves is the existance of evil. Perhaps evil is the only other "self", as God's "self" doesn't include evil. Quite possibly, this is the only real "natural division" of anything -- good and evil."

Well, one would have to believe that good and evil are in fact separate, but this doesn't seem to be the case; good does not exist without evil and vice versa.  If only good existed, then everything would be good, so there would be no reason for the idea of good, it would just be.

Peace, scitso

Posted 2/1/2006 5:52 PM by scitsofreaky - reply

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[So really, by challenging the law, it has been discovered that the laws are, well, illegal, so they are just removing unjust laws.]

Unjust according to you.
Posted 2/2/2006 11:28 PM by LSP1 - reply

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The reason that they can't get married is because the law does not allow it.
Posted 2/3/2006 7:54 AM by LSP1 - reply

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ryc: You asked if I had any proof to support my claim? Get outa town, you're kidding, right? What do you think Rosie O'donnel was having a cow over? She was having a cow because the laws have stated that marriage is between a man and a woman, if that isn't proof enough, perhaps you should ask any homosexual who is seeking to marry, they'll tell you straight up the laws on marriage.

Are you aware that homosexuals march to change the marriage laws so that they may marry? - If not, look it up, google it if you mush, there's plent of proof out there.

Posted 2/3/2006 10:23 AM by aied8pes - reply

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It's only over because I just proved it, you know it's true and you don't want to face the truth.

I don't have to prove anything actually. if you are not aware of why homosexuals want to change the age old law, then the burden of "proof" is on you.

Not going to argue w/ you, that's for sure.

have a wonderful life.

Posted 2/3/2006 10:55 AM by aied8pes - reply

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Scitso - Again, if the law DOES ALLOW IT, then homosexuals would not be trying to have the law changed, so that they could marry. It's very simple to understand.
Posted 2/3/2006 10:55 AM by LSP1 - reply

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Well Mr. Scitso, it just so happens that I do miss them and I'm fine with that.  What I'm not fine with is all the Amanda crap.  That's the stuff that I pretend to be fine with.  I act like it doesn't hurt, that it doesn't affect me, but it obviously does.  I don't know!  I'm such a girl, GOSH!  I wish I could just forget it!

Loave ya!

Posted 2/3/2006 3:07 PM by wolleyyellow - reply

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Scitso - Since America was founded , and the Constitution was written, there has never been a law for homosexuals to marry.
Posted 2/3/2006 3:27 PM by LSP1 - reply

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If you get past the first part Lewis never tries to prove christianity again. He just talks about it.
Tony
Posted 2/3/2006 4:45 PM by atheistthoughts - reply

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There are absolutes and there is One who created these absolutes. You seem to believe in a God-free world. God does not need to be proven. He has done that already. Can you create dirt, water, or air out of nothing? Can you make ANYTHING out of NOTHING? Can you create an animal or explain it's origin? That it crawled out of mud or water after a couple billion years of evolution? I find it hard to believe that. Where did the single cell come from? This will be my last lengthy conversation with you and Tony B. I am tired of arguing with someone who just argues for the sake of arguement. I make my leave with only this to say: Look around you. Look at what God has created and blessed you with. I know you have problems and worries but God comforts and gives hope to everyone. Seek with your heart and soul and mind God and his Son. Please, that is all I ask of both of you. I know I haven't answered all your questions nor you mine but I am done with bickering endlessly with no end.

Posted 2/3/2006 6:42 PM by MasterMindGamer - reply

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Good job cornering the fundamentalists scitso. Since this has turned into a cyclic discussion between you and LSP1 I took the liberty to intervene.

LSP1, how about you do some research before talking. Let me draw your attention to this:

 "They claimed that by denying them a marriage license, the state was depriving them of three constitutional rights. They were the right to marry, the right to associate, and the right to freely exercise their religion. In its decision, the Court of Appeals of Kentucky noted that the Kentucky statutes relating to marriage did not include a definition of marriage. The court claimed that in the absence of a definition, the common usage must be used. To find the common usage the court used the definitions of three dictionaries: the Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition; The Century Dictionary and Encyclopedia; and the Black's Law Dictionary, Fourth Edition. All three dictionaries have defined a marriage specifically as a union between a man and a woman."

Now, if you read and followed that, LSP1, you would see that such often falls back on the dictionary definition of the word marrriage. Dictionary definition vary with time and with culture. That is an entirely different discussion if you wish pursue. I believe this is what scitso was trying to get you to yourself without digging it into your head - but that's where I come in. G'day mate.

Posted 2/3/2006 7:36 PM by emancipate_your_mind - reply

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I love your profile pic.

Nothing is self-defining. Every definition is in terms of something else. Does that mean that the "self" is nothing?

u still have a self without others
If there are no others, then how do you know what a "self" is?

Posted 2/3/2006 9:20 PM by shakens0da - reply

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"Nothing is self-defining. Every definition is in terms of something else. Does that mean that the "self" is nothing?"

I'm actually saying that "Self" contains nothing as well as everything.  To quote myself, "In summation, 'self' contains all duality."  Nothing/something is one of those dualities.

Peace, scitso

Posted 2/3/2006 11:06 PM by scitsofreaky - reply

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